This month, the Criterion Channel is programming ‘Songs My Brothers Taught Me’, the debut feature by wondrous filmmaker Chloé Zhao. I got to interview her in Cannes for her second feature ‘The Rider’ and it was published originally on the HuffPost. Here it is now, a bit shortened and re-edited. And don’t forget to watch ‘Songs My Brothers Taught Me’ on January 15th.

Chloé Zhao, with her calm, unapologetically beautiful personal brand of filmmaking, opens a dialogue with “the Other”, grabs her viewers’ hands and takes us along on a journey of understanding. And in the process, she also redefines courage — a quality I look for in films.

In her second feature ‘The Rider’, Zhao explores further this new cinéma vérité genre she seems to have singlehandedly formed which has captivated me since ‘Songs My Brothers Taught Me’. She takes real life protagonists, cowboys like Brady Jandreau and Lane Scott, draws inspiration from their own experiences and misadventures and creates a narrative film that keeps her audience spellbound from beginning to end. And beyond.

I sat down with the filmmaker in Cannes, overlooking the Nespresso beach, which made for some pretty great views and a wonderful conversation.

You have this amazing way of giving us the stories of people who are overlooked and creating a bond between the audience and them. How do you manage that?

Chloé Zhao: I think there are two parts to that answer. Unfortunately, I think I drifted so much growing up that I don’t have a strong sense of identity. I don’t feel at home anywhere and because of that I think I’m more of a chameleon. I was raised an atheist so I don’t have a strict sense of religion either, and wherever I go I find myself trying to fit in, try to feel at home. I constantly modify myself. There are downfalls to that because you are constantly trying to figure out who you are, but at the same time I’m blessed with the lack of base paint on the canvas.

I think it makes you a better artist, because your art is about connecting to your subjects and losing your ego…

Zhao: There you go, that’s the word. That’s a difficult one to fight off and I deal with that in life but when it comes to work I find I’m able to put that down. Maybe as a Chinese woman I was never told I would be a filmmaker, so I didn’t have the ego set up. The second part of that answer, I mean I studied politics and especially now I find my calling is constantly on the “enemy’s side”. I’m constantly not on the right side of history. I sympathize with the soldiers in the enemy’s camp. For example in WWII, we know the Nazis and the Japanese were wrong. But I sympathize with the individual story of a soldier who was drafted into that. Those were not his ideals and that person has a mother, has heartbreaks, hopes and dreams... I constantly find myself going after their story.

For ‘The Rider’ specifically, at a time like this in America when we are so divided and because of Trump people in middle America is almost demonized for having voted for him, it is so important for me as a storyteller to not just tell the obvious stories. I find what I do best is to go to the other side of the line and to remind people on my side that these are human beings also. The media is constantly trying to tell us on both sides how we are essentially different as human beings, because by dividing us they can take advantage of us.

Divide and conquer!

Zhao: And divided we fall. I just love the reactions they’ve had here in the Q & A for Brady and Lane who look like Trump voters — they are cowboys! And the fact that we get the French Quinzaine audience which is probably the most liberal audience, to feel compassion for them, that for me is the most important social issue that I’ve accomplished. Of course it’s not only about issues but you are building bridges between people who would typically disagree and argue.

You have hit the nail on the head, I mean the only way to deal truly with the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, Trump’s election and Brexit is to understand “the Other”.

Zhao: The only way, I say to my passionate liberal friends, to defeat an administration like Trump’s is to get through to their voters. It’s not to push them aside and fight them. You have to win people over with love and compassion.

How much of ‘The Rider’ is true and how much is scripted?

Zhao: Brady really did get hurt last year. I met Brady two years ago and I knew I wanted to make a film about Indian cowboys who are enrolled members of the Sioux tribe but the difference is they wear a feather in their hat, so that’s how you can recognize them. I knew I wanted to put him in front of the camera and was trying to come up with a story for him but couldn’t find one that worked. Last April he got hurt, a horse stepped on his head at a rodeo, he was in a coma… He was back riding horses in a couple of weeks after the surgery and at that point I started to have a conversation with him and asked “why do you do that?” Which inspired the movie because it is that need to hold on to his identity. Again, something really relevant today, West Virginia coalminers needed to hold on to their identity and turned that state red for the first time… So for Brady it’s literally risking his life everyday for keeping who he is. People are kidding themselves to keep their identity all over the world, you know.

We tie it so closely with what we do, instead of who we are.

Zhao: For some it’s their religion, for some their politics. It’s a shame. A film like this one reminds us that when there is a scar on every one of us, it will hurt. Our bodies are actually all the same, we got one heart, we are made of 90% water, that doesn’t change and if we remember that… That’s why I like South Dakota in that way because when nature comes into play, when a storm comes in out there, it doesn’t matter what religion you are or what politics you follow, you are going to bundle together to survive. I think by separating humans from nature so much we feel like we are complete individuals and so different from one another and we don’t need each other. It’s all very loaded.

Your film is the perfect example of Thierry Fremaux’s passionate credo, that films should be watched on the big screen — they deserve to be up there. I watched your film on my computer and craved the entire time that I could be in a cinema.

Zhao: I guess I have mixed and conflicted feelings about that. On the one hand the experience of people in the room, not being able to check their phones or put the film on pause, is very important. I almost feel religious when I’m in South Dakota, you want to bow to nature, so those scenes belong on the big screen. You can’t do that on the computer. At the same time I feel like we have to adapt and be relevant as filmmakers. In France it’s a little easier but in America we don’t have any protection for the arts to compete with Hollywood. Even to reach my audience in middle America, they don’t have movie theaters. My last film did really well online because all the Native American reservations don’t have movie theaters but they were able to watch this film about them on Netflix and iTunes. That’s where my mixed feelings come from and distribution is such a wild west situation in America… I’d rather have my film seen, but I’m glad there are some people still fighting the cause to keep films on the big screen.

I know you’ve just presented this film to the world, but what is upcoming for you?

Zhao: A couple of things, the most immediate one is a period Western about a very unlikely hero in the American west, a black sheriff whose story should really be heard. And it’s set at a time in America when a lot of cultures and races came together and set the foundation for everything we are debating today. By looking back at this part of history that has never been told before, been ignored in textbooks and Hollywood, it’s important to see where all this comes from. That character really embodies it all.

Images courtesy of the Quinzaine des Réalisateurs, used with permission.